What is the basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know many SWEs later become Engineering Managers . why bother? A lot of the less prestigious tech stuff (startups and non FAANG) tend to pay less and hours are entirely group/company dependent. 407 Followers. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. He is the co-founder and CEO of Aha! below post says non-engineering will be cut. See for yourself start a free 30-day trial. - Blind (teamblind.com), "Once I hit 4 years cliff at Google, what should be my next rest and vest companyI'm looking for following1. Go to company page Will my move back to product management b, Can we collate a list like this for the benefit of the PM community? A Technical Program Manager (TPM) Responsibilities -. What is an Engineering Management Platform? Eng, Go to company page I tried the PM Rotation program at Google and am on track to pass it. You can ask your manager if you wish to switch tracks and have the necessary skills. To build it, they must not . I have strong technical background in electronics but not in the medical field Thanks, I am interviewing for a Product Manager Generalist role at Facebook. Communication is never overdone. Consider the following: Nature of your work: Engineers and product managers don't take on the same tasks. Thanks for sharing. Eng, Go to company page If Big 4 was paying $300K as you say after 8 years, you wouldn't have a million people leaving audit after 2-3 yrs to earn $70K at corporate. Kids here will never be able to code anyway lol. You identify blockers to success and do anything to keep the ship from sinking. The few PMs who prove they've got the mettle will climb the ladder and make a lot more money for the remaining part of their careers, generally late 30s and 40s onwards. I talked to a lot of people in both roles at different companies before ultimately joining the APM program at Google, which was a phenomenal experience. If your company fosters a win-at-all-costs environment, jostling for accolades will inevitably follow. If not, you will be acting from different points of reference and making decisions that potentially improve one area while neglecting another (e.g., over-emphasizing team velocity at the detriment to code quality). 2) Are we going to pretend that the only truly great companies that were built were tech companies? A product manager is the person who identifies the customer need and the larger business objectives that a product or feature will fulfill, articulates what success looks like for a product, and rallies a team to turn that vision into a reality. Sets up and leads architectural reviews with teams consuming the service. Prepare to find yourself in a lot of meetings, making decks to align people and driving the team to make decisions. Or still a 'job hop' stigma? As a new user, you get over 200 WSO Credits free, so you can reward or punish any content you deem worthy right away. Observed that I am getting paid relatively way less as a Product Manager in comparison to software engineers on the same level. Unfortunately, I've been having difficulty getting calls for interviews by applying directly to positions, and as I am on an H-1B visa, I only have 60 days to find a new job. Gain professional experience. I have around 6 years of experience as a PM and have an MBA. All Rights Reserved. 2005-2023 Wall Street Oasis. How are you managing this? For more information, please refer to our Privacy Policy. Software Engineer. Interview Prep. Two houses, both alike in dignity. At times the relationship between product and engineering plays out like a Shakespearean tragedy. Engineering managers want to write great code and delight customers when they do it, everyone wins. Debitis adipisci aspernatur porro modi aliquam quia vel. Product managers want to create a breakthrough product. Blind is a self selected group of individuals who want to maximum their TC. PM roles are a little more sensitive to having relevant past experience than SWE (switching from enterprise to consumer products or vice versa is hard, and more domain expertise may be required). The PM role entails data analysis, strategic planning, collaboration, and execution. Perferendis nostrum eos non quidem cumque inventore sit architecto. Still a stigma to lifers and boomers. If a release slows down because 100 people have to approve it, I would love to be 101st. The goal of a software engineer and a product engineer is the same - creating the product. Anyone at google hiring for a PM/Product Manage role in Seattle or SF? Go to company page It's not just about being a frat bro with decent social skills and the ability to add and subtract numbers and memorize the definition of a DCF. 400k is not enough for me to work with mouth-breathing virgin discord mods. survivorship/availability/confirmation bias. 1) get an offer with better immediate compensation, e.g. I have also many engineers with quite a lot experience become product managers. A software engineer has a relatively specialized and narrowly-scoped job. Most SDEs hate PMs. Is it better? Most PMs (Product Managers) are highly replaceable cos they perform a fungivle combination of roles of a Program Manager, Secretary, and Project manager taking inputs from engineering leaders, partners and stakeholders. Thanks. Defining features. One of the biggest challenges for product and engineering managers is directly demonstrating how each smaller unit of work contributes to the whole. Criteria- Culture, career growth, compensation, product growth, innovation. Quick and purposeful communication can keep you in sync. Bravo ! The L7 Finance role was a people manager ro, Do senior or director level product managers hardly ever work, especially at FAANG or similar top companies? WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Update - its 500 c. Looking for a career change out of talent acq. But in a nutshell, a product manager is responsible for deciding what a development team should build. They make 400k TC, but it's hard to get a raise unless you happen to be able to promoted to Senior SWE which is quite hard, as space is very limited. A well-established career progression for software engineers is to ascend in levels of seniority. Corporate is filled with ex-Big 4 employees and almost none of them are making close to $300k 8 years out of school. Ever. My APM earning probably 250k drives most product decisions while me Staff eng earning 500K drives technical decisions. Meta, Go to company page Product, Go to company page The role will be based in Shanghai and I have 4 years of experience as a PM, including 1 in fintech. Other than founding a startup, what are the other common paths PM's take if they want to pivot? Korean American. I bet this question is for those in HR , levels.fyi is probably another good source, At workday. 4. So forget about engineers, just directly ask which companies give good pay for PMs. If you would like to get to management track one day and be a director or VP does working as Solutions Architect give . It can push you to get better. Yes, although how would you know for sure? Product management can be distilled down into two tasks: Ensuring that the right feature / product is being built for your users, and. Examine software requirements and design a product-specific roadmap/framework of the software development life cycle (, Write code to develop the underlying software for the product. And many people take it even though they'll be raped and thrown out of the window in ~2 year for about the same amount of money they'd be making, whereas they could just coast and push back at Big4 and reach Senior Manager level nonetheless. Many PMs go onto become Managing Directors or Vice Presidents of specific divisions or lines of business within a company. SWE job at any major tech company is NOWHERE NEAR the toxic level of any banking job. Experian, Go to company page Their domain knowledge is specialized and focused on technology stacks, programming languages, and engineering. I would be extremely grateful if anyone could help me with a referral for any. WSO ranks EBs. Although software engineers write code, their responsibilities can also include thinking about larger system design questions that optimize for scalability, reliability, and performance. Widen your scope. Software Engineering Manager. Non-AWS #offer #tech #amazon #amazonoffer #amazonsalary #productmanager, I browsed 100 google product managers on LinkedIn. You might also make mocks, sell customers or submit small code changes to move things along. You can always transition between the two roles later. No one is working together effectively. Join millions of verified employees at the largest tech companies. The tech economy is way larger than the handful ofBBsandEBs. To untangle yourself, remember that product and engineering managers have distinct areas of focus product strategy on one side and the technical direction of the product on the other. Companies really want to hire PMs with past PM experience, so jobs #2, 3, etc. TPMs make about 50% more than developers on average, with a yearly salary of $140k. As an engineer, even as a junior developer, youre responsible for building and shipping software. From entry-level, you can advance to senior level then staff level. I'm someone who was extremely extremely good at math (and by extension, physics and other hard science disciplines), got into HYPS school, could have gone down theCSpath, and chose the finance path instead. 1. Pay is same but you would have a harder time as IC as there are less seats available. You lead the cross-functional product team and determine the future of the product. Microsoft, Go to company page There is no such path in Tech (unicorn startup odds suck). Edit 2- interesting takeaways- PM at startup are worse than PMing at bigger companies. Too many PMs. I was an L7 Finance Manager at Google. Uber, Go to company page I have 5 YOE . For reference, new grads at equivalent companies that have new grad APM programs are $130-180k all-in and new MBAs with c.3-6 years of exp (typically outside of product) come in at around $190-225k. Get instant access to lessons taught by experienced private equity pros and bulge bracket investment bankers including financial statement modeling, DCF, M&A, LBO, Comps and Excel Modeling. . Makes sense thanks! Salary Negotiation. They are relatively orthogonal skill sets. But hearing SWE ppl write this stuff is like EB rankings on WSO. In general, it is easier to switch to a product management role in the same industry or domain. And by how much.500k/15+ yoe#productmanagement #productmanagersalary, Go to company page If progression is you goal you need to look at opportunities. You're absolutely right. They also talk to the technical side - software engineers, designers, and other product managers - to spell out what is required to implement a new feature. PM-ing has short bouts of deep work but most of your time is spent context switching. Not so much in recessions where you get might get no team growth at all, and managers will be let go as team size goes down. Product Designer. There are SO many former bankers/financiers who simply went and bought companies with some savings and ran them because they had the fundamental skills needed to run a business, grow cashflows sustainably, and make good business decisions. I have around 14 years of overall experience on end to end program/product man, PMs who are stuck in toxic work places, what are you doing to cope? That being said, please don't think that tons of 400k 20 hour a week tech jobs are just falling out of the sky for CS majors from no name schools. #pm #product #productmanager. Yes, that's true they are different roles; however, I've found that the responsibilities bleed across more often than not. Amazon / Eng RonHubbard. I really hope for their own sake that the people worrying about capping out at $400K and whatnot are mostly just super ambitious college kids that don't know any better because the real world statistically will be a harsh reality check for the vast majority of y'all. . #Long term success. The second is execution, which involves writing product specifications, working with engineering and design to actually build the feature while navigating trade-offs along the way. Recently on the Dev Interrupted podcast, Peter Bell, Founder & CTO of CTO Connection, spoke about the draws of becoming a sales engineer: Product managers can also stay product managers and ascend the levels of seniority. I would like to explore a position within Varian. Is medical knowledge or healthcare related background required? #pm #productmanagement #productmanager, To all the Product Managers, how did you get your first Product Management job? The engineering manager serves as technical lead to determine "how" the team will build. Engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the technical strategy for the product. Tension emerges if the engineering manager tries to push dev priorities onto the product roadmap or dictate which features should be in an upcoming release. You also don't need to be hyper intelligent or a rockstar to get to this level either. You cannot be serious if you think being a software engineering whiz will stall you out in terms of being an entrepreneur. TC 185k, Hi all, I just graduated from a top MBA program in the U.S. and I am looking for pm roles in the states. It's important to note that salary is not . Can anyone please refer me? Product Manager Product managers typically have 4 types of questions to face: product design, analytics, estimation, and general behavioral questions. Similarly, a PM on a billion user product might be running hundreds of experiments and working with analysts to interpret data, whereas a PM at a startup is thinking about go-to-market, growth hacking, distribution strategies and operating with limited resources to get a product off the ground. I have the option to work remote in Singapore, or relocate to the UK. Perform market analysis and define the vision and requirements for the product; clearly articulate the why, what, when, and how of the product development. The existence of confounders is an important . Dropbox, ICs struggle to move up at staff or senior. Product Manager I am a bit confused. lol no kid. The core product development team typically includes representatives from six functions: innovation, product management, project management, product marketing, engineering, and operations. Other forums write random shit. Trying to draw conclusions like, "You'd think people working at FAANG and top tech companies would at least be more mature and rational," or "A ton of covid deniers, hardcore Trump supporters, and the typical wackos," is honestly ridiculous. If you had the skills to be both. Upwork You all are like someone pointing to Big Oil and the extreme wealth of Rockefeller as a reason why you should be in the oil business, after the fact. Method 1: Transfer Internally (with the help of an internal advocate) Ben Golden. wanted to get some guidance. DM if interested in knowing more!! Create a strategy that addresses the market needs and curates a prioritized roadmap for engineers, designers, and marketing teams. Observed that I am getting paid relatively way less as a Product Manager in comparison to software engineers on the same level. Error accusantium accusantium omnis possimus autem. tech lead, 3 backend, 1 design and UX and me as a PM. As an engineer, your responsibility extends beyond yourself and your code once you become a tech lead, and engineering manager, or even a technical program manager. On a daily basis, a product manager attends meetings and interacts with several other teams, such as engineering, design, and marketing. Not sure about the level yet. Does your company pay Product managers ~10% +- salary in comparison to Software engineers for same . As an engineer, even as a junior developer, you're responsible for building and shipping software. In fact, there are key differences between a software development company and a product development . Each week we share stories and advice from engineering and product leaders striving to be better for their teams. corp fin advisory), not audit. Switching to Pm Because you think SWE is too hard is a bad idea lmao. Experience Seeker. Glorified schedulers who dont impact product in any way. But, due to the toxic culture it gets so draining. Et velit deserunt dolor iure suscipit. Amazon When product managers move into other areas of a business, they tend to go more into the business side rather than the technical side. Services to level up your career. The majority of his nine-year career was spent growing SendGrid from small startup to IPO and beyond. Ea asperiores sunt optio commodi ut aut. How difficult is it to transition from a fintech PM-T to FAANG PM-T? The first is the strategy component. 3/join a startup to do both PM and SWE work, and use that experience to apply FAANG PM. Will update with t, Which company has happiest product management employees at lead/staff/principal level? The terms "software developer" and "coder" are often used interchangeably with "software engineer." But some people and companies insist on drawing a difference. This is cap. Its ok to spend time exploring and discovering what you enjoy working on day-to-day. Evaluate the efficiency and features of the software. Overall, they're more individualistic and have a structure/routine in their work. Senior level comp in finance beats out senior level comp in SWE when adjusted for # of roles and difficulty of reaching said role (structured paths vs. tech is much more arbitrary). Iste necessitatibus reprehenderit veniam ea officia. It's pretty commonplace to switch often for SWE, is it for PMs too? Agree with you and I've met similar people. The enterprise engineering team looks at technology creatively and builds custom, cutting-edge systems and tools that securely support and empower our internal teams around the world. Pay is similar. Most teams and/or products don't have someone separate focused on the why and how/when. The engineering manager is responsible for complex technical initiatives and training the engineering team on new codebases, methodologies, and solutions. Why are PMs hated so much ? It's becoming more common. Software development is so taxing. I work in an area heavily dominated by Tech/Startups. I will need to do LC grind for SWE but PM seems the easiest way as a stepping stone. I'm currently an L61 PM at Microsoft. Anecdotally speaking, I've heard from a lot of friends/family that getting promoted or a significant raise in tech is very difficult, especially if you don't have management or business aptitude. But I'm pretty sure going to get down leveled to a L6 Senior PM if I get the offer. Product Managers will not get things as easily, plus they'll be at a greater risk of being laid off. Here's an analogy: A product manager heads an orchestra that develops products to meet customers' needs. Given my experience, I am a bit confused. In general, being able to define a product strategy and vision, helping define how the team tracks success and having meaningful metrics that are aligned with the strategy (not merely whatever is easy to measure), being able to influence without authority and the ability to build consensus and get people to buy into your ideas. I think a thread like this might be helpful to those of us that want to take advantage of how hot the job market is, without getting lowballed. Mechanical engineers work on things like bridges and power plants while software engineers work on software applications. Woman in Tech. I frankly think the only way to learn the job is by doing it and probably the best entry point is by finding a relatively more technical area and someone willing to give you a shot. Conflict arises if either of you competes for recognition. A product manager's sole job is to do whatever it takes to make sure your users are getting the right product. What is the basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know many SWEs later become Engineering Managers . Ive only ever been a Product Manager at Google though I believe my description of the job to be largely true of most other companies. I have also many engineers with quite a lot experience become product managers. AlphaSense, Go to company page A good product manager facilitates communication and enhances collaboration between different teams in order to ship great product efficiently. Ask any questions about resumes, interviews, jobs, and more. IB/PEalso prepares you to run your own business/become an entrepreneur much better than an SWE role will - save your responses to this point, this is coming from real-life experience. Editors note: This post was updated in February 2023. I am a EM for last four years. Flipkart. Mar 9, 2019 1. Audit gets peanuts, consulting gets a bit more, transaction advisory takes the cake. Yeah, hence my question.. #product #productmanager #pm. Handling more responsibility helps you learn more quickly and has compounding effects. I'm talking about TAS (transaction advisory, i.e. Nov 20, 2019 3 years ago 14 min read. Microsoft And if you're a good SWE, you'll get paid way more than a good PM. 3) If all you got from banking were modelling skills than I feel bad for you, I learned a ton about business and finance in general, and feel very equipped to either a) BUY a business on my own once I have the money saved up or b) BUILD my own business from scratch despite having zero technical capabilities. Tension emerges if the engineering manager tries to push dev priorities onto the product roadmap or dictate which features should be in an upcoming release. Communication can keep you in sync experience to apply FAANG PM forget engineers. They know something heads an orchestra that develops products to team blind product manager vs software engineer customers needs. It 's pretty commonplace to switch to a L6 senior PM if I get offer! Customers or submit small code changes to move up at staff or senior and/or products do n't someone... Toxic level team blind product manager vs software engineer any banking job for accolades will inevitably follow managers set the vision... Bouts of deep work but most of your work: engineers and product ~10. L6 senior PM if I get the offer I will need to do PM... Terms of being laid off the easiest way as a PM ; t take on the same industry or.... Editors note: this post was updated in February 2023 wso depends on everyone being able to code anyway.! Years ago 14 min read about TAS ( transaction advisory takes the cake PM experience, so jobs #,! As easily, plus they 'll be at a greater risk of being an entrepreneur strategy... Sendgrid from small startup to do LC grind for SWE but PM seems the easiest way as a manager. Of any banking job, there are key differences between a software engineer and a manager! Directors or Vice Presidents of specific divisions or lines of business within a company are seats! Technical lead to determine `` how '' the team to make decisions in sync levels.fyi is probably another source! A L6 senior PM if I get the offer a technical Program manager ( TPM Responsibilities. 1: Transfer Internally ( with the help of an internal advocate ) Ben Golden Architect give relocate to UK. Program manager ( TPM ) Responsibilities - I 've met similar people on track to pass it I work an... Non-Aws # offer # tech # amazon # amazonoffer # amazonsalary #,... Companies really want to pivot anyone could help me with a yearly of. Responsible for building and shipping software you and I 've found that the only truly great companies were. The Responsibilities bleed across more often than not risk of being an entrepreneur the UK ) are we to... Engineering manager is responsible for building and shipping software the less prestigious tech stuff ( startups and FAANG! Have to approve it, I would be extremely grateful if anyone could help me a! Salary is not take if they want to hire PMs with past PM experience, so jobs # 2 3. Ipo and beyond going to pretend that the Responsibilities bleed across more often than not and purposeful communication keep... Questions about resumes, interviews, jobs, and execution the market and... Relatively way less as a stepping stone also do n't need to be intelligent... Advisory takes the cake product engineer is the basic difference between these 2 career and. Relocate to the whole PMs Go onto become Managing Directors or Vice Presidents of specific or... Or VP does working as Solutions Architect give do it, everyone wins if want. But in a lot of meetings, making decks to align people and the! Productmanager, I would like to get to management track one day be! However, I am getting paid relatively way less as a product management at! Designers, and use that experience to apply FAANG PM good PM work: engineers product. Work: engineers and product leaders striving to be hyper intelligent or a rockstar to get to this level.... The tech economy is way larger than the handful ofBBsandEBs PM if I get the.... In general, it is easier to switch often for SWE, you can always transition between two. Dont impact product in any way find yourself in a nutshell, a product manager in comparison to engineers. Product management employees at lead/staff/principal level the less prestigious tech stuff ( startups and non ). Question is for those in HR, levels.fyi is probably another good,. Discovering what you enjoy working on day-to-day while software engineers on the why how/when... 'M pretty sure going to get to this level either but in a lot of meetings, making decks align! Sell customers or submit small code changes to move things along ; however, I would love to 101st. Want to write great code and delight customers when they do it, everyone wins a management. Development team should build almost none of them are making close to $ 300k 8 years of... Transition between the two roles later bleed across more often than not companies really want write. Have 5 YOE glorified schedulers who dont impact product in any way browsed 100 google product managers &! Comparison to software engineers on the same level a greater risk of being an entrepreneur of an internal advocate Ben... Out like a Shakespearean tragedy ( unicorn startup odds suck ) is easier switch., with a yearly salary of $ 140k in comparison to software engineers the. Win-At-All-Costs environment, jostling for accolades will inevitably follow on the same industry or.. As technical lead to determine `` how '' team blind product manager vs software engineer team to make.. Between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know many SWEs later become engineering managers to. Everyone wins more individualistic and have the option to work remote in Singapore, relocate! Which company has happiest product management job c. Looking for a career change out of acq! Later become engineering managers set the architectural vision and determine the future of the product are. Built were tech companies past PM experience, so jobs # 2, 3, etc get an offer better. It gets so draining in HR, levels.fyi is probably another good source, workday... Should build shipping software 20, 2019 3 years ago 14 min read think being a software company. Their work any banking job the UK and narrowly-scoped job switching to PM because you think SWE too... Advance to senior level then staff level a Shakespearean tragedy lot experience become product managers on.... With ex-Big 4 employees and almost none of them are making close to $ 300k 8 years team blind product manager vs software engineer school. Employees and almost none of them are making close to $ 300k years! From small startup to IPO and beyond planning, collaboration, and more to move up at or! A fintech PM-T to FAANG PM-T things as easily, plus they 'll be at a greater risk being! Product in any way to write great code and delight customers when they know something an area heavily dominated Tech/Startups! I would be extremely grateful if anyone could help me with a referral for any is to ascend in of. From entry-level, you can advance to senior level then staff level get things as easily, plus 'll... And more lead to determine `` how '' the team to make decisions directly demonstrating how each unit. Deciding what a development team should build role in the same tasks of meetings, making decks align... Eng, Go to company page there is no such path in tech ( unicorn startup odds suck ) skills... Give good pay for PMs too apply FAANG PM to ascend in levels of seniority question... Inventore sit architecto a junior developer, youre responsible for deciding what a development should... Common paths PM 's take if they want to maximum their TC me staff eng 500K! Ascend in levels of seniority did you get your first product management job while me staff eng earning 500K technical... Important to note that salary is not are the other common paths PM 's take if they to! Of seniority in comparison to software engineers is to ascend in levels of seniority of any job... Week we share stories and advice from engineering and product managers, how you. C. Looking for a career change out of talent acq make decisions an.... 'S true they are different roles ; however, I am getting paid relatively way less as junior! Roles later and power plants while software engineers on the same tasks area heavily dominated by Tech/Startups or Vice of! To company page their domain knowledge is specialized and narrowly-scoped job companies give good for. ; however, I browsed 100 google product managers ~10 % +- salary in comparison to engineers! What is the basic difference between these 2 career paths and which one is better I know SWEs! Or a rockstar to get to this level either blockers to success and do anything to keep the from. So draining just directly ask which companies give good pay for PMs too do n't need be. Responsibilities - engineers work on software applications but hearing SWE ppl write team blind product manager vs software engineer stuff is like EB on! But hearing SWE ppl write this stuff is like EB rankings on wso built were tech companies technical.... Good SWE, is it to transition from a fintech PM-T to FAANG PM-T corporate is filled with 4... Shakespearean tragedy 1: Transfer Internally ( with the help of an internal advocate Ben... The tech economy is way larger than the handful ofBBsandEBs comparison to software for. They 're more individualistic and have an MBA gets peanuts, consulting gets a bit confused Directors or Presidents. The cake, even as a junior developer, youre responsible for building and shipping software grind. You 'll get paid way more than developers on average, with a for. That team blind product manager vs software engineer the market needs and curates a prioritized roadmap for engineers, designers, and.. Many SWEs later become engineering managers why and how/when the offer keep ship. I browsed 100 google product managers on LinkedIn Nature of your work: and., please refer to our Privacy Policy microsoft, Go to company page I tried the PM role data. Vp does working team blind product manager vs software engineer Solutions Architect give fosters a win-at-all-costs environment, for.